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	<title>Comments on: So, it&#8217;s propoxur</title>
	<atom:link href="http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/11/11/so-its-propoxur/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/11/11/so-its-propoxur/</link>
	<description>A bed bug policy advocacy group</description>
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		<title>By: Rich Kozlovich</title>
		<link>http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/11/11/so-its-propoxur/comment-page-1/#comment-21176</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Kozlovich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/?p=4100#comment-21176</guid>
		<description>If this should come into being it appears that it will be in an oil based formulation and yes it will stink.  Not unbearably, but it will smell.  As for the lable instructions.....that is the bone of contention as I understand it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If this should come into being it appears that it will be in an oil based formulation and yes it will stink.  Not unbearably, but it will smell.  As for the lable instructions&#8230;..that is the bone of contention as I understand it.</p>
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		<title>By: Renee Corea</title>
		<link>http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/11/11/so-its-propoxur/comment-page-1/#comment-21155</link>
		<dc:creator>Renee Corea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/?p=4100#comment-21155</guid>
		<description>Wondering what sort of label this would have; it&#039;s rather stinky no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wondering what sort of label this would have; it&#8217;s rather stinky no?</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Kozlovich</title>
		<link>http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/11/11/so-its-propoxur/comment-page-1/#comment-21145</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Kozlovich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/?p=4100#comment-21145</guid>
		<description>Jeremy,

I understand exactly what you are saying, and I have conceded the point that people do stupid things and it is true that they don’t follow label instruction well or at all.  

I am a fellow Ohioan so I am aware of the Cincinnati incident.  Additionally there was twenty thousand dollars plus in damages along with these poor people being seriously inconvenienced. However, this actually supports the point that I am trying to make; and that is people will use home remedies and techniques that are far more dangerous than applying a pesticide once or twice.  

I hate to keep coming back to the risk versus benefit argument, but we have over sixty years of background to show that pesticides available to the public had an overall beneficial impact.  True, people did stupid things and once again they don’t follow directions well, but the risk is miniscule compared to the benefits.  

We keep talking about exposure as if any exposure to pesticides is terrible.  I am sorry, but this just isn’t so.  Exposure and toxicity are two different things and the Litulis Kilgore incident in Lorain County shows just how resilient the human body is.  

As for the alcohol remedy…that was recommended by one of the County Health Departments in Ohio.  Lighting the cigarette was his own idea.  So then….which is dumber and more dangerous…using alcohol, smoking, or using pesticides?  Just a thought!

Best wishes,
Rich Kozlovich</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy,</p>
<p>I understand exactly what you are saying, and I have conceded the point that people do stupid things and it is true that they don’t follow label instruction well or at all.  </p>
<p>I am a fellow Ohioan so I am aware of the Cincinnati incident.  Additionally there was twenty thousand dollars plus in damages along with these poor people being seriously inconvenienced. However, this actually supports the point that I am trying to make; and that is people will use home remedies and techniques that are far more dangerous than applying a pesticide once or twice.  </p>
<p>I hate to keep coming back to the risk versus benefit argument, but we have over sixty years of background to show that pesticides available to the public had an overall beneficial impact.  True, people did stupid things and once again they don’t follow directions well, but the risk is miniscule compared to the benefits.  </p>
<p>We keep talking about exposure as if any exposure to pesticides is terrible.  I am sorry, but this just isn’t so.  Exposure and toxicity are two different things and the Litulis Kilgore incident in Lorain County shows just how resilient the human body is.  </p>
<p>As for the alcohol remedy…that was recommended by one of the County Health Departments in Ohio.  Lighting the cigarette was his own idea.  So then….which is dumber and more dangerous…using alcohol, smoking, or using pesticides?  Just a thought!</p>
<p>Best wishes,<br />
Rich Kozlovich</p>
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		<title>By: johnycakes</title>
		<link>http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/11/11/so-its-propoxur/comment-page-1/#comment-21131</link>
		<dc:creator>johnycakes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:55:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/?p=4100#comment-21131</guid>
		<description>I am not making light of others misfortunes but i can&#039;t stop laughing at the stupidity of those alcohol users, and that was JUST alcohol, a chemical which has been around for thousands of years. people with that level of intelligence would probably use a product like catalyst as baby soap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not making light of others misfortunes but i can&#8217;t stop laughing at the stupidity of those alcohol users, and that was JUST alcohol, a chemical which has been around for thousands of years. people with that level of intelligence would probably use a product like catalyst as baby soap.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Hessel</title>
		<link>http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/11/11/so-its-propoxur/comment-page-1/#comment-21124</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Hessel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/?p=4100#comment-21124</guid>
		<description>Rich,
I agree that the product should be available, but to only the professionals licensed to use restricted use pesticides.  Here at the Hamilton COunty Public Health we see it weekly where a consumer purchases a product over the counter and applies it.  When you ask &quot;Did you read the label on where it can be applied, how to apply it, or what did the label say it was for?&quot;  Most of the answers are &quot;The landlord gave it to me, I purchased it on the internet, or the neighbor used it and said it worked.&quot;  I am not a baby sitter and people can do what they want, but if we can prevent a future issue with exposure to a chemicals by allowing it as an over the counter product, then we should.  The professional exterminator who has knowledge should have access to this product.  Do you see where I am coming from.  This is a constant problem with landlords and tenants who are paranoid and will do anything to get rid of the bugs.  

We recently had an incident here in Cincinnati where a family was using 90 % isopropal alcohol and sprayed a bed down and then a cigarette was lit.  The apartment caught fire and 12 people were displaced.  There needs to be responsibility placed on the purchaser of the product to read the label and apply it correctly, but this is not a perfect world.  Lets leave the applying to the professionals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rich,<br />
I agree that the product should be available, but to only the professionals licensed to use restricted use pesticides.  Here at the Hamilton COunty Public Health we see it weekly where a consumer purchases a product over the counter and applies it.  When you ask &#8220;Did you read the label on where it can be applied, how to apply it, or what did the label say it was for?&#8221;  Most of the answers are &#8220;The landlord gave it to me, I purchased it on the internet, or the neighbor used it and said it worked.&#8221;  I am not a baby sitter and people can do what they want, but if we can prevent a future issue with exposure to a chemicals by allowing it as an over the counter product, then we should.  The professional exterminator who has knowledge should have access to this product.  Do you see where I am coming from.  This is a constant problem with landlords and tenants who are paranoid and will do anything to get rid of the bugs.  </p>
<p>We recently had an incident here in Cincinnati where a family was using 90 % isopropal alcohol and sprayed a bed down and then a cigarette was lit.  The apartment caught fire and 12 people were displaced.  There needs to be responsibility placed on the purchaser of the product to read the label and apply it correctly, but this is not a perfect world.  Lets leave the applying to the professionals.</p>
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		<title>By: Alternatives — New York vs Bed Bugs</title>
		<link>http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/11/11/so-its-propoxur/comment-page-1/#comment-21077</link>
		<dc:creator>Alternatives — New York vs Bed Bugs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 03:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/?p=4100#comment-21077</guid>
		<description>[...] Pesticides weighs in on Ohio&#8217;s propoxur Section 18 request: Importantly, there are many alternative ways to manage bed bugs without the use [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Pesticides weighs in on Ohio&#8217;s propoxur Section 18 request: Importantly, there are many alternative ways to manage bed bugs without the use [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Kozlovich</title>
		<link>http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/11/11/so-its-propoxur/comment-page-1/#comment-20935</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Kozlovich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/?p=4100#comment-20935</guid>
		<description>Jeremy,

Regarding the cycle of resistance....we will never find a way out of that because it is part of nature&#039;s cycle.  We will always be in that proverbial boat you refer to. 

When DDT was first being used everyone thought that the magic bullet had been found.  Later resistance developed in some insect populations because we fell into the pattern that already existed in nature without knowing it.

Most of the pesticides we will come in contact with are naturally occurring in the food we eat, and most of the carcinogens we consume are naturally occurring in our food, ninety five percent actually….and at a higher level of carcinogenicity than most manmade chemicals.   

Plants don’t have claws, they don’t have thick hides and they can’t run away.  The only way that they can protect themselves is through chemistry.  They create their own pesticides and repellants.  Pests then become resistant to those chemicals and as a result the plants will start manufacturing some other chemical to protect themselves.  This is the pattern we fell into and we are prepared to deal with it by producing new chemistry.   We absolutely know that resistance will eventually develop in the pests we are attacking in every product we use.   

Resistance isn’t a mutation.  “Resistance is a genetic phenomenon” where-in some insects are already resistant to the chemical introduced into their environment.  As we develop chemistry to deal with pests we will find that these resistant ones are the only ones left breeding, since the non-resistant ones are killed off.   Eventually almost the entire population will be resistant.  We then must change materials just as plants do in nature.  So the argument for not releasing these products based on a concern for resistance is not appropriate in my opinion.   In fact, by not releasing this product we are hastening resistance in the products that are available because they are being applied at a much higher rate than would be necessary than using a product that works in one or two applications.  

People will not tolerate this problem without doing something to protect their families.  We still come back to the fact that people are using things that are homemade and many times are using techniques that are far more dangerous than having propoxur as an over the counter product.  

As I have stated in the past.  People will do foolish things, but people have always been just as foolish about this things in the past as they are today and will be tomorrow, so as we look back in time we have ask ourselves; how many people were killed by these products?  None that weren’t attempting to kill themselves as far as I can tell.  How many were impacted negatively in other ways by these products which did have over the counter labels? That number has always been very small, especially when you consider the hundreds of millions of applications that have been made over the last 60 years by professionals and non-professionals alike.  

However, when we look at the results of all of those applications we find that we created a largely pest free environment that we grew accustomed to, and rightly so, including an environment free of bedbugs.  As a result of all of those professional and non-professional applications our homes and businesses are mostly pest free and healthier as a result.  

We, as a society, have created chemical fears that are unbalanced and irrational.   In short; we are the healthiest chemophobes in the world.  I believe that the reality is in the history.  The solution in 1946 was effective and inexpensive chemistry that was available to the public; and it will have to be the answer in 2010.  

Every product and technique out there today is failing.   The numbers of bedbugs are growing in size and location.  Worse yet, we are finding more and more resistant populations and some are so resistant that nothing available will kill them at all.  We need effective, inexpensive chemistry that is available to the public if this plague is to be cured.  Let’s make no mistake about it; if these pests carried the plague we wouldn’t be having this conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy,</p>
<p>Regarding the cycle of resistance&#8230;.we will never find a way out of that because it is part of nature&#8217;s cycle.  We will always be in that proverbial boat you refer to. </p>
<p>When DDT was first being used everyone thought that the magic bullet had been found.  Later resistance developed in some insect populations because we fell into the pattern that already existed in nature without knowing it.</p>
<p>Most of the pesticides we will come in contact with are naturally occurring in the food we eat, and most of the carcinogens we consume are naturally occurring in our food, ninety five percent actually….and at a higher level of carcinogenicity than most manmade chemicals.   </p>
<p>Plants don’t have claws, they don’t have thick hides and they can’t run away.  The only way that they can protect themselves is through chemistry.  They create their own pesticides and repellants.  Pests then become resistant to those chemicals and as a result the plants will start manufacturing some other chemical to protect themselves.  This is the pattern we fell into and we are prepared to deal with it by producing new chemistry.   We absolutely know that resistance will eventually develop in the pests we are attacking in every product we use.   </p>
<p>Resistance isn’t a mutation.  “Resistance is a genetic phenomenon” where-in some insects are already resistant to the chemical introduced into their environment.  As we develop chemistry to deal with pests we will find that these resistant ones are the only ones left breeding, since the non-resistant ones are killed off.   Eventually almost the entire population will be resistant.  We then must change materials just as plants do in nature.  So the argument for not releasing these products based on a concern for resistance is not appropriate in my opinion.   In fact, by not releasing this product we are hastening resistance in the products that are available because they are being applied at a much higher rate than would be necessary than using a product that works in one or two applications.  </p>
<p>People will not tolerate this problem without doing something to protect their families.  We still come back to the fact that people are using things that are homemade and many times are using techniques that are far more dangerous than having propoxur as an over the counter product.  </p>
<p>As I have stated in the past.  People will do foolish things, but people have always been just as foolish about this things in the past as they are today and will be tomorrow, so as we look back in time we have ask ourselves; how many people were killed by these products?  None that weren’t attempting to kill themselves as far as I can tell.  How many were impacted negatively in other ways by these products which did have over the counter labels? That number has always been very small, especially when you consider the hundreds of millions of applications that have been made over the last 60 years by professionals and non-professionals alike.  </p>
<p>However, when we look at the results of all of those applications we find that we created a largely pest free environment that we grew accustomed to, and rightly so, including an environment free of bedbugs.  As a result of all of those professional and non-professional applications our homes and businesses are mostly pest free and healthier as a result.  </p>
<p>We, as a society, have created chemical fears that are unbalanced and irrational.   In short; we are the healthiest chemophobes in the world.  I believe that the reality is in the history.  The solution in 1946 was effective and inexpensive chemistry that was available to the public; and it will have to be the answer in 2010.  </p>
<p>Every product and technique out there today is failing.   The numbers of bedbugs are growing in size and location.  Worse yet, we are finding more and more resistant populations and some are so resistant that nothing available will kill them at all.  We need effective, inexpensive chemistry that is available to the public if this plague is to be cured.  Let’s make no mistake about it; if these pests carried the plague we wouldn’t be having this conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Renee Corea</title>
		<link>http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/11/11/so-its-propoxur/comment-page-1/#comment-20930</link>
		<dc:creator>Renee Corea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/?p=4100#comment-20930</guid>
		<description>Hey Jeremy-  

Good to see you.  I think that the debate over restricted use is academic.  General use labels will never happen.  And I have similar concerns.  I do respect Rich&#039;s position and I understand where he&#039;s coming from, because I think that we all need to put our brains together about how to solve the access to pest control services problem -- this has to be a priority policy objective.  Until it is, we will go nowhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Jeremy-  </p>
<p>Good to see you.  I think that the debate over restricted use is academic.  General use labels will never happen.  And I have similar concerns.  I do respect Rich&#8217;s position and I understand where he&#8217;s coming from, because I think that we all need to put our brains together about how to solve the access to pest control services problem &#8212; this has to be a priority policy objective.  Until it is, we will go nowhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Actually, no, that&#8217;s not true — New York vs Bed Bugs</title>
		<link>http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/11/11/so-its-propoxur/comment-page-1/#comment-20928</link>
		<dc:creator>Actually, no, that&#8217;s not true — New York vs Bed Bugs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/?p=4100#comment-20928</guid>
		<description>[...] However, it is nice to see Richard Pollack saying something sensible. (Our discussion of the propoxur story here.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] However, it is nice to see Richard Pollack saying something sensible. (Our discussion of the propoxur story here.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Hessel</title>
		<link>http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/2009/11/11/so-its-propoxur/comment-page-1/#comment-20920</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Hessel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newyorkvsbedbugs.org/?p=4100#comment-20920</guid>
		<description>I have to agree with Johnnycake on this issue.  I deal with landlords and tenants on a daily basis and the fight against bedbugs.  Some of there folks do not read labels and put down anything, anywhere because of their fear of bedbugs.  They want the quickest fix and will put it anywhere.  The products that are being considered should not be available to the general public.  This will continue to happen and will possibly cause preventable injury.  The bugs will soon become immune to some of the chemicals if everyone has them and everyone knows they are affective.  We will be back in the same boat looking for another product to be approved from the EPA.  Change tactics, switch up chemicals and do not use the same ones at every bedbug infestation.  Stop the immunity cycle.  Let the professionals use the restricted products.

Jeremy Hessel, R.S.
Hamilton County Public Health</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Johnnycake on this issue.  I deal with landlords and tenants on a daily basis and the fight against bedbugs.  Some of there folks do not read labels and put down anything, anywhere because of their fear of bedbugs.  They want the quickest fix and will put it anywhere.  The products that are being considered should not be available to the general public.  This will continue to happen and will possibly cause preventable injury.  The bugs will soon become immune to some of the chemicals if everyone has them and everyone knows they are affective.  We will be back in the same boat looking for another product to be approved from the EPA.  Change tactics, switch up chemicals and do not use the same ones at every bedbug infestation.  Stop the immunity cycle.  Let the professionals use the restricted products.</p>
<p>Jeremy Hessel, R.S.<br />
Hamilton County Public Health</p>
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